Yes, terrible things were done in the founding of America, but terrible things happened all over the world throughout history (including between warring native tribes). But what we need to take from this isn't that our ancestors were horrible human beings, but that they did wrong things and more importantly, we need to strive to learn from it, not repeat their mistakes and generally be better people.
> the current property "owners" are criminal trespassers in my view.
Then pretty much every single American is a trespassers because basically the entire United States (or North America in general) was settled by native American before the Europeans "discovered" it, and in most cases, they didn't sell them their land.
Yes, it is. But it's quite a lot more exercise than most humans are going to engage in.
I spent a few years walking several hours a day. I was unemployed and homeless at the time.
It was very beneficial to my health, but I hesitate to "recommend" it because I know what most people will tell me: they can't spend that kind of time walking every day, even if it could potentially save their life.
It's incredibly distracting, I couldn't imagine trying to work on a treadmill, I can't even manage to play turn based RPGs on the treadmill on the lowest setting. The only treadmill activities that have worked for me are TV and podcasts.
Whenever they want to actually damage a company they just don't fine them. They pass a new bill, create new regulations, or take action against individuals in the company in order to "send a message" without hurting the business as a whole, to avoid scaring off other companies. which is exactly what a serious fine would do, as it should, and as everyone (but the investors) want.
I think the whole sector of meat-substitutions would be very successful, can't speak about this specific IPO, because of the state of the entire market right now.
But if many big companies, highly invested in meat are investing in substitutes as well, they are not doing it from moral/humane/environmental reasons, they are just doing it for the money, so for those that are dedicated to this, it seems promising (if they can just survive the punches that "big meat" will send their way)
I sort of feel that if the worst thing you can find is that someone stole your registration or OAuth documentation, you're a bit over-exaggerating.
And to say that someone is cloning your startup when they only (supposedly) stole the documentation is extreme in any case, especially when they're not really a very new startup, so it's not like you can claim everything they did was just copy from you.
> I don't have any data to back it up but majority of Israeli startups have one goal: to be acquired...
As someone that worked for one, and knows enough people that work in other Israeli startups, I can tell you it isn't true.
True, some startups get acquired, but no more then any other place (the only difference I see is that in some tech areas Israeli talent is considered very good, so when looking for an acquisition, big corps are probably more likely to go for the Israeli options)
As someone who worked for one and is originally from Israel, I can tell you it is, absolutely, 100% true. No one in Israel is interested in managing or building a large company and they all want to exit as soon as possible.
Also Israeli, can also back this up.
There are a handful of Israeli startups trying to build a large companies.
There are exceptions, and large one at those. But it's the common mentality.
What does is mean in "indigenous people"? where did the other Japanese people come from?
I think they should definitely be considered a minority, while still continuing with the actions mentioned in the article, like recognizing their culture and trying to help them after suffering discrimination.
But I always find the term "Indigenous" weird, because we all came from somewhere, so will American from Italian descent be considered "Indigenous" (just to Italy and not America)? I feel like that word is always used to describe non western culture, things and customs that are considered "less advanced", less modern, that we need to preserve, when in reality I think it's just another culture that we need to respect and except, and that by calling that group of cultures "Indigenous" there is some racism involved (by all participants)
The Yamato ethnicity (大和民族 Yamato minzoku), primarily descended from the Yayoi people (who are relatively recent arrivals from the mainland, i.e. first millennium CE), historically occupied Honshu, Kyushu, and Shikoku. They're the ethnic group usually called "Japanese," and the majority. The Ainu ethnicity, primarily descended from the Jomon people (who represented an earlier wave of in-migration to the Japanese archipelago, thousands of years BCE), historically occupied Hokkaido. Hokkaido was only integrated into the main Japanese polity in the last few hundred years.
But, it's all fraught and complicated, conceptually(/politically/culturally) and empirically. (For instance, Yamato people also have Jomon heritage, and these days most Ainu also have Yayoi / Yamato heritage.) So indeed, indigeneity is complicated here, just like it is, as you say, everywhere.
There were known Ainu populations in northern Honshu as well before the Yamato fully assimilated them, though this process happened centuries ago. The Ainu were not limited to Hokkaido.
Any other recommendations in the category of long-term Japanese history and anthropology? I find this subject really interesting, but have struggled to find good sources.
Honestly, I'm much more familiar with China scholarship than Japan scholarship, and with historical scholarship than anthropological. But Bruce Batten's To the Ends of Japan might be worth a read. There are also quite a few scholarly works concerning the role of kokugaku (roughly, "national learning") -- a fairly fundamentalist, xenophobic school of philology and philosophy that sought to purge Japanese culture of foreign "impurities", and rose to prominence from the Meiji Restoration through WWII. (It also exercised considerable influence on modern Japanese archaeology in its formative period; my impression is that its nativist premises colored many early archaeologists' findings.) Stuff on social status (John Hall's "container society" and more recent materials) might be interesting too -- e.g. on the status of burakumin).
For the most part, that is literally true -- they were the first group of humans on that land, humans having originated in Africa.
These books make the point that agriculture is the essential difference between indigenous and non-indigenous peoples. Agricultural technology enables people to get on boats and take the land of non-agricultural societies. It enables greater popular density and wealth.
This happened all over the world in the same progression, at roughly the same times.
In America, the indigenous peoples came from Asia by way Alaska more than 10,000 years ago. Then Europeans came by boat ~500 years ago.
I don't know much about the history of Japan, but it seems to have been inhabited by non-Japanese/Chinese and then the Chinese ancestors of Japanese conquered the land. If anyone knows details I'm interested.
China was of course one of the first agricultural societies, and this enabled them to expand their territory rapidly, on the Asian continent and beyond. There were indigenous peoples living all over the Phillipines, Polynesia, Hawaii, etc. but they look "Asian" now because of the Chinese expansion. There were two different groups of people that collided.
One thing: one really can't talk about "China" qua society, or "Chinese" qua ethnicity, in this context. While there's a long, long tradition of talking about Zhongguo 中國 ("the Middle Kingdom", though its original meaning was closer to "the states of the Central [Plain]"), and asserting monoculturalism, in reality Chinese regionalism has always been really pronounced -- hence the reality that when spoken, Chinese "dialects" (like Putonghua/Mandarin and Cantonese) are actually more different, and less mutually intelligible, than European Romance languages. (And it goes beyond language -- think regional cuisines. As further illustration, eespecially if you look at Warring States period cultures, there's actually a stark difference between the traditions of the northern plain and of the south, esp. the state of Chu 楚 -- you can even see it, obviously, in their art and artifacts. The aesthetic are wildly different.)
Now, you could argue that Taiwan represented a Chinese conquest of indigenous peoples. But even before the island was annexed (during the Qing dynasty, in 1683 CE) there had been fishermen and pirates from the mainland (and Japan) operating there to some degree.
Ultimately, you have various populations leaving the Asian mainland at different times. Sometimes later populations intermixed/intermarried with populations that had arrived in outlying territories earlier, sometimes they displaced them; usually it was a combination of both. But it wasn't some monolithic ethno-state exploiting a technological advantage to expand its reach -- the reality was much more complicated.
Yes your point is taken, I guess saying "people coming from the geographical area that's now China" is more accurate.
Coincidentally, yesterday I was watching "Civilizations" on Netflix, and they brought up the 1986 discovery of these incredible Bronze Age statues from the 12th-11th century B.C.:
And they were saying this contradicts the "Middle Kingdom" idea, i.e. that all of Chinese culture came from one place. The book Sapiens reminds us that every civilization/government likes to make an argument for why it has inevitable "divine" authority, and China is no exception. They exaggerate their history to claim power.
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But I think there is probably a reasonable analogy to Europe. It's not inaccurate to say the "Europeans" conquered the Americas starting around the 1500's.
European states like Spain, Britain, and the Netherlands were constantly at war with each other. But they all made conquests to different places in the Americas at slightly different times (i.e. South and Central America for Spain, the Caribbean, North America, etc.)
These societies shared broad characteristics and influenced other. Not just agriculture, but also property rights, the rule of law, etc. Their spoken and written languages were mutually unintelligible, but they recognized each other's currencies and could trade with each other. They adopted each other's technologies.
Nobody would call them the same, but it is coherent to talk about them as "European". It's a matter of semantics, but I think you can also call a group of disparate people "Chinese" in the same way. Although in the latter case there is a much greater difference in time. The Europe of today has considerable cultural continuity with the Europe of 1500 (art, music, government to some extent, etc.). I don't know how true that is for pre-modern China, although I suspect that if you adjust for the time period, it's roughly similar.
I would be interested in pointers to more resources about that.
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Another point: what other term would I use besides "Chinese"? "Asian" does not seem accurate or what historians would use. I think historians would come up with a different term than "China" or "Sino" if the difference were extremely large.
For example, as far as I know Mycenaean society has basically nothing in common with modern Greece -- no continuity in art, music, government, etc. -- but it's still called "Mycenaean Greece" since the land area they occupied is the same.
If there is another word for post-agricultural but pre-modern China, I would be happy to use it! "Chinese" is indeed a big and vague term with a lot of baggage to many people. (I am Chinese myself but born in America.)
> I guess saying "people coming from the geographical area that's now China" is more accurate.
Agreed, but a significant number of scholars still think the Yayoi people came from what's now Korea, and I think that there were also movements of peoples from the Southeast Asian peninsula into the Philippines and Indonesian archipelago. Now, there are certainly overseas Chinese communities in these places who came there recently, i.e. in the last few centuries, and have maintained their Chinese identity -- but the reason why most people in Indonesia look significantly different from most Papuans or Aboriginal Australians is not because of those recent arrivals, but rather because of a wave of in-migration from Southeast Asia that occurred millennia ago, long before China had taken on anything like its current form.
I actually think "Asian" is far and away the better term to use here, and the one historians (I actually am a historian of China) would use: it refers simply and neutrally to peoples from the continent of Asia, just as "Europeans" strictly speaking refers to peoples from the continent of Europe (in contrast with more culturally fraught terms like "Westerners", which connotes the technologies, currencies, etc. you mention). But there are in fact several different terms used to refer to the cultures that have affinities with China's when it comes to philosophy, linguistics, politics, etc. -- "Sinitic" and "Confucian" being the most prominent. (Some just call China, Japan, Korea, Vietnam, and certain pockets of other areas the "Sinosphere"). How appropriate those terms are is rightly debated, of course, but they are taken seriously as categories of analysis. Lots of members of the New Qing History school of historiography (e.g. Pam Crossley, Mark Elliott, Laura Hostetler, and Emma Jinhua Teng) have written about these issues, as have Ge Zhaoguang 葛兆光, Peter Bol, and Yao Dali 姚大力. James Millward had a good outline of attitudes regarding minorities (少數民族) and ethnicity from the Qing to the present-day in his New York Review of Books article on the current crackdown in Xinjiang a few weeks ago, though I think it's paywalled.
(BTW, I think the general feeling is, in fact, that Chu culture was lineally descended from the Sanxingdui culture -- Sapiens did well to use it as an illustration.)
It is widely believed that they are related to (and originated from) the aboriginal peoples of Taiwan, which is distinct from Chinese civilization in both genetics, culture and agriculture.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polynesia#Origins_and_expansio...
When the Polynesians arrived by boat in New Zealand (Maori), Hawaii, Easter Island and other islands in the South Pacific prior to AD 1300, they were the first settlers there. Also, their expansion is completely unrelated to "Chinese expansion".
Hawai'i was already occupied before the population Cook met arrived. Like the Chatham islanders (still present when Cook landed, before the Maori learned of them), they were mostly wiped out. In Hawai'i only legends of "menehunes" remain. A similar process happened in England and Ireland, with Gauls displacing the Picts ("pixies"). The Gauls of Britain and Ireland lost their culture and land to Nordic invaders, but stiil represent much of the genetic heritage there.
The "menehunes" arrived via the Marquesas. The present Polynesian population came from Tahiti or Fiji, although all ultimately trace back to Taiwan.
There is some evidence that islands closer to New Guinea were populated more than 20,000 years ago, before the present population swept in.
Japan adds an interesting footnote: the samurai are said to retain a much higher proportion if Ainu genetic heritage than typical Japanese. This observation is not popular in Japan.
>I don't know much about the history of Japan, but it seems to have been inhabited by non-Japanese/Chinese and then the Chinese ancestors of Japanese conquered the land. If anyone knows details I'm interested.
That's quite a strong and controversial claim to be making without strong evidence. From what I understand, most modern Japanese historians are quite opposed to the above idea. As one of the other replies pointed out, it's also a bit anachronistic to be applying terms like China and Japan in this situation.
> From what I understand, most modern Japanese historians are quite opposed to the above idea.
Japan is a country where even in academia, people often have an unshakable belief in the "uniqueness" of their culture. This has made Japanese unwilling to consider connections to other Asian regions and peoples. Consequently, a lot of the scholarly consensus on Japanese history has been formed by scholars from outside Japan who don't have an attachment to the notion that Japan is particularly unique.
Generally, Korean has been seen as the probable source of the Japanese and Ryukyuan languages, not China, and there were Japanoid populations on the Korean peninsula centuries ago. However, Alexander Vovin (one of the world's most respected scholars on the history of Japanese) recently gave a thought-provoking conference presentation arguing that the Japanese language and certain aspects of Japanese culture may well ultimately spring from coastal China.
Given my experience with these outside "scholars" of my own culture, I'm going to go with the Japanese consensus. Often what these people claim as "objectivity" is actually just ignorance that they mask with the pseudoscientific language of the Humanities.
>attachment to the notion that Japan is particularly unique.
Every nation and culture is unique. Given that their language is not even in the same family as any of their neighbors, this notion does not seem unfounded. The hostility that outside scholars have towards this idea does however seem less than objective.
How is "Japanoid" pseudoscientific language? It is standard practice in linguistics and archaeology to add -oid to X to denote languages that the historical record shows were related to X, but were not necessarily the same as X. (Another example are the dialects further north in the Balkans in the first millennium that were related to Albanian but not necessarily Albanian, hence Albanoid).
> Given that their language is not even in the same family as any of their neighbors.
Again, Japanese shares the same family with neighbours they had on the Korean peninsula before the Korean peninsula's demographics changed. Almost no one disputes this. Longer-range connections like Altaic or Martine Robbeet's Transeurasian hypothesis are more controversial, but still within the scholarly mainstream.
Why should we care that anybody was a "first people"? And how long down the line will we recognize a group of people as fist people? Do they not make babies with non first people?
10k years from now are we still going to be going on about "so and so is of so so blood line making him indigenous" ?
While they seem like shitty questions, they are serious, because for somebody like me who knows little about his past, its hard to wrap my mind around being so attached to a group identity that really seems like it matters very little to your ability to succeeded and live a happy life today -- unless -- you declare being indigenous is something special and thus gives you extra rights, or more say, or something? And if having the label brings nothing, they why such the fuss?
Also, I am sure we can all trace our blood back to some "first people", so now what? Can I go back to my "first peoples" land and demand to be called indigenous?
Indigenous peoples have their own cultures, languages, traditions, etc. Unfortunately, colonization has oftentimes wiped out these things, as said in the article:
>The act implemented Japan's compulsory national education system in Hokkaido and eliminated traditional systems of Ainu land rights and claims. Over time, the Ainu were forced to give up their land and adopt Japanese customs through a series of government initiatives.
>High levels of poverty and unemployment currently hinder the Ainu's social progress. The percentage of Ainu who attend high school and university is far lower than the Hokkaido average.
Recognizing that the Ainu are an indigenous people is one of many steps that are necessary to create a more inclusive society so the Ainu can preserve their culture/traditions and not be forced to assimilate.
You took this thread repeatedly into flamewar. That's not what this site is for, so please don't do it again here.
Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and note this rule in particular: "Comments should get more civil and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive.". If you'd please take that to heart when commenting here from now on, we'd be grateful.
All in all the notion of preserving a "culture" is silly. If any thing we should be documenting what we can for history and moving on.
The documentation that we have been able to do thus far, even when it's in good faith (as documentation-before-annihilation would not be) is woefully insufficient. We can't even document pre-industrial processes well enough to duplicate them in vitro, let alone complex cultures.
Its not that I don't have respect for culture, its I don't have respect for practicing old culture notions in modern day.
And yet here you are, with your out-of-date notion that culture isn't worth preserving.
> So what? Colonization overall has brought humans much further than any st agent culture ever would have.
This is a really disturbing attempt to downplay indigenous genocide committed by colonists, the effects of which still persist today in many government laws and behaviors. You can't say it's overall 'brought us further than any other culture' because there are a number of other actions and events which propelled things further. Your logic would defend some of the worst atrocities in human history under the guise of 'furthering human society' as a whole.
> This is a really disturbing attempt to downplay indigenous genocide committed by colonists.
And this is a disturbing attempt to make it seem as I am saying something other than I am. I don't need to bring up the bad just because I talk about the good. Nor do I need to have make my opening statement a apology to the indigenous people, reminding everybody of things that happened in the past every two seconds.
My logic does not defend or refute, it merely is a analysis of what happened and how it benefited human society today. While other events have made significant strides forward we still have a lot of evidence that shows colonizing promoted the exchange of ideas and melding of new cultures that continue to change -- mostly for the better -- today. We have a lot of evidence of places left untouched, or where colonization failed are some of the worst places with the least access to medical, education, internet, clean water, and tolerance of change and new ideas. These are the places where homosexuals, would be killed on site, where their culture still cuts the genitals of children, where voodoo can remotely kill or strike lightening on a given target, where people run around in the buff throwing spears at modern technology.
Is it coincidence that all the places that were so brutally colonized also happen to be where civilization is thriving, technology and medicine are curing and making lives of the masses better very day.
Part of the issue I have with topics like this is the time shifting. It seems that some people are unable to transport them selves back in time when things were different, and understanding that this was "life" back then - for good - for bad. People at one point took shits in bushes, then we tossed the shit out the window, and now we have -- in most of the places that were colonized -- modern plumbing. I am glad I don't live in times like that, and am glad that most of the worlds land is conquered and our country lines are fairly stable.
Acknowledging that what we have now is good, because of things in the past is not "defending them" or is it saying I would chose them or even enjoy the fact. So please leave your personal attacks out of it, and stick to giving me solid evidence showing me I am wrong.
Talking about "colonization" in a broad sense as if it was a single uniform thing is totally useless. How much commonality is there between, e.g. the British colonialism in Hong Kong or the Portuguese in Macau, and the Belgian colonialism in the Congo?
It's not a particularly hard question, it's answered in the article for that specific case:
The act implemented Japan's compulsory national education system in Hokkaido and eliminated traditional systems of Ainu land rights and claims. Over time, the Ainu were forced to give up their land and adopt Japanese customs through a series of government initiatives.
This was in 1899, not 10,000 years ago. I don't know if they are 'shitty' questions but they aren't very serious since they are framed in a pointedly inaccurate and uninformed way.
The first people were in 1899? Or just the "second" people came in 1899?
Part of my argument is that you can't be a "first" person in 1899, because the first people arrived thousands of years before.
Even the first subject is only partly decedents of the "first" peoples.
So if we are going to go down these lines of people get rights, or special treatment based off being indigenous, what are we really looking at? There are have been 1000s of years of intermingling both known and unknown, a "people" are not a static group, people are changing all the time.
Shitty was not the word I wanted to use but I was in a time crunch, callus is more how I feel on the subject.
Not having your language and culture coercively erased is not 'special treatment'. Again, framing it like that is not some flinty insight into a hard truth. It's just making stuff up.
> Not having your language and culture coercively erased is not 'special treatment'.
Languages and cultures have a life cycle, I am not sure any of us would want to live in a society that tolerated and nurtured every culture that ever existed.
That being said you / me / they, are not their culture. You are a individual, and people should only be treated based off their individual merit. Using your culture as a way to distinguished your self and get special treatment, respect, or reconsecration is literally an extension of racism. This is not something you chose, there for it should be meaningless much like the color of your hair, or skin color. When you treat culture like you are -- you are creating exclusionary boundaries based on happenstance. There is nothing to be proud of because you were born in X culture, because you have done nothing. There is nothing to be ashamed of because you were born in Y culture because you as a individual have done nothing but simply existed. Wanting to preserve it -- and not make anew is just burying your head in the sand.
The article is about discrimination and coercion, not the natural ebb and flow of languages and cultures. If you haven't had a chance to read it, it's probably a good time to do so if you want to discuss what's actually in it.
And this thread is about a small part of the topic. We don't need special designations or considerations to combat discrimination. I am also calling into the question the entire notion of indigenous people -- considering that many of groups in question have lived on the same land for 100s of years. I also call into question the notion that your (as in you/me/anybody) ancestors have any tangible relation to today. In such, that, we grant a clean slate to EVERYBODY when they are born, and judge and treat them only on their merit.
In short, your ancestors accomplishments/failures or sins matter not, for you are a new person.
Part of the issue is cultural preservation, Distinct cultures, particularly indigenous ones, have unique oral and recorded histories, and translation can lose important cultural context.
As an example of that, there are a total of 10 Manchu native speakers left in the world. This is a problem because many Qing-dynasty documents are in Manchu.
Also, ethnic discrimination against indigenous peoples has a long history pretty much globally. Legal equality is often not enough, because the past couple centuries have been spent whittling their economic and social capital to basically nothing. Reparations or subsidy is required for even a hope of getting those people on equal footing.
> there are a total of 10 Manchu native speakers left in the world. This is a problem because many Qing-dynasty documents are in Manchu
The lack of Manchu native speakers is not a problem for dealing with Qing-era state documents. The Manchu language is well-described and for many, many decades Han Chinese scholars (and then foreign scholars in Europe and North America) have been trained to work with Manchu sources. Does the lack of Latin native speakers hinder anyone from working with a new Roman-era text or inscription?
Furthermore, those handful of remaining native Manchus heavily code-switch with Chinese, and they have lost a great deal of their native Manchu vocabulary (a common phenomenon as a language dies), so even if you did show them a Qing-era text, they would probably be unable to understand much of its terminology without special training.
I am all for protecting language diversity, but your Manchu example is uninformed.
A lack of native speakers can inhibit context. How many translations exist of, say, the Aeneid, or Beowulf?
If Manchu didn't need to be protected because of how widely known it is, the notoriously assimilationist PRC would not be launching an initiative to translate all the documents, and would not be promoting Manchu language use and education[0]. You don't see similar efforts with, say, Shanghainese.
Language changes, and texts that were written before in a language are not necessarily intelligible to native speakers today. 2000 years after the Aeneid was written, ordinary native speakers of the language it was written in (i.e now French, Italian, Spanish, Romanian, etc.) are unable to make much sense of it, let alone provide valuable insights to scholars. It is trained non-native speakers who are able to read it at all.
Similarly, even if Manchu had not become so moribund, its native speakers probably would have been no more proficient in Qing-era texts, especially considering that they represent an elite literary style and bureaucratic terminology, than trained non-native speakers.
Speaking from experience in India, the indigenous people in India form the lowest strata of caste system. They were I'll treated and exluded from society for 1000s of years. Government now has a "schedule" of indegenous people that require government aid and affirmative action in jobs. These are people living in abject poverty.
your ancestry and heritage are very much attached to your ability to succeed and live a happy life today, in most parts of the world. That is why people want these things recognized so that statistics can be collected to shape public policy. This is even more so for people that would be indigenous such as native americans, aboriginals, tainos, and ainu.
> agriculture is the essential difference between indigenous and non-indigenous peoples
Isn't part of the history of Plymouth that the Mayflower pilgrims had no idea how to farm and were woefully unprepared and thus on the verge of starving, but the indigenous Wampanoag people helped them learn how to do it and survive?
Isn't there massive, widespread and overwhelming evidence that most indigenous societies in the Americas as an example practiced sophisticated agriculture and had an enormous variety of developed crops and techniques including selective breeding, biochar, terracing, enormous terraforming projects, large scale irrigation systems, special varieties of maize for arctic, desert and salty biomes, as well as developing massive trade networks that managed to get central american grown cocoa as far north as Utah?
How could it be that such cultures could possibly be described as being distinguished by not having agriculture?
> > agriculture is the essential difference between indigenous and non-indigenous peoples
Yes, that part of the parent comment stuck out at me as grossly untrue. While some were hunter-gatherers, many American indigenous populations had widespread agriculture [1].
> But I always find the term "Indigenous" weird, because we all came from somewhere
Right but of course there is a difference between coming to NA less than 200 years ago and 15,000++ years ago.
When settlers arrived in North America, Indigenous Nations in North America were systematically stripped of their lands and titles and worse. In Canada at least the notion that 'everyone came from somewhere' is viewed as a settler rhetorical tactic to loosen and obfuscate Indigenous title to the land and this is not taken kindly by Indigenous persons.
Consequently in Canada Indigenous people will often state that they've been in NA 'since time immemorial' or more simply 'always'. This is not scientifically likely to be true, but it's essentially a strong assertion and underlining of the fact that the land is their unceded land and that settlers are settlers to it.
If you apply the theory that any conquered land still eternally belongs to whoever it was conquered from, then almost everybody on Earth owes their land to someone else, since everyone is descended from conquerors. This includes the American natives, who warred and took land from each other frequently.
Does place X "really belong" to tribe A, who sold it to white people? Or to tribe B, who were previously conquered by tribe A? Or to tribe C, who were conquered by tribe B even before that? And so on.
It also shades quickly into nativist ideas that delegitimize immigrants since even after generations since they're not "really from" the place where they live. If white Americans aren't "really from" America, it's not hard to argue that e.g. black British aren't "really from" the UK and don't have a true right to exist there if the natives disagree.
If we're going to have any coherent framework around this at all, it has to include some duration of time after which people are considered naturalized to a land. I'm inclined to say that someone who was born in a place and lived there their whole life has a natural, native right to live there. But it's definitely open to discussion. What isn't open is the idea of eternal ethnic land rights. Nor is the unspoken but commonly-applied rule that whites have no exclusive rights to any place but everyone else owns the place they live in.
(The American example even ignores the complexities of settler/native interactions; it was by no means a one-sided conquest; they worked together, and traded, and involved each other in inter-white and inter-tribal conflicts on both sides for centuries. Whites acted very much like just another collection of tribes on the American political field for a long time; the only long-term diffrence was not moral at all, but simply the fact that they managed to succeed where the Lakota and Iroquois and others tried but failed.)
> If you apply the theory that any conquered land still eternally belongs to whoever it was conquered from, then almost everybody on Earth owes their land to someone else, since everyone is descended from conquerors. This includes the American natives, who warred and took land from each other frequently.
lmao this entire passage is exactly what I'm talking about. A concrete issue is being muddled by vague generalities, in an attempt to obfuscate what really happened and defend settlers. I mean boy people have been conquering people all the time throughout history so who cares that white people stole land from indigenous people right?
No.
Settlers took over unceded indigenous land. Indigenous Nations are now attempting to re-claim specific tracts of land. This is a real and concrete issue.
It is a complicated term and it usually only refers to people groups that:
a) Have a long historic and cultural tie to the region they currently occupy,
b) are no longer the dominant culture in that region, and most importantly,
c) consider them self indigenous,
In practice an indigenous people group really only has to fulfill the last criteria. Note also that they don’t have to be the first people group to occupy a region. They don’t even have to have been there before the dominant culture arrived. For example, the Inuit people are believed to have arrived in Greenland after the Norseman in the early 11th century, and they didn’t occupy parts of east Greenland until th 20th century. Today they are arguably the dominant culture in Greenland. However nobody can dispute the fact that they are indigenous people in their land.
Can't someone file a class action lawsuit against Facebook?
I mean, it's nice that they are deleting the information now, but they clearly did something wrong, and by basic standards, they should be punished. And the deleting the stolen information isn't punishment, and since they probably won't delete any new ad targeting information they gathered as a conclusion from the contacts, they are still profiting from it, so the punishment should be more then just a small fine (that I hope they get).
I'm just sick of them (and other companies) "accidentally" doing something wrong, and barely get a slap on the wrist.
There already is a $78B class action lawsuit against Facebook over the Cambridge Analytica scandal. $1000 per American whose information was harvested. It's hard to google for however.
I'm not entirely sure I have that much of a problem with ad fraud, doesn't it only hurt the ad companies and companies like google (which I have a problem with anyway), by basically scamming them into believing that I interacted so that company should be compensated.
I do object to collecting and sending my personal information, but I feel they just mixed it, as that probably relates to more then just these Chinese apps.
And I really don't like the fact that it seems that Google only cares about abusing the users, and breaches of trust and privacy when it hurts the advertisers (and themselves), and not when the normal user gets hurt.
I would actually think the smaller ones would detect the issue faster, simply because they would see ad clicks and recognize no new business, as opposed to bigger ones, that this would be an insignificant change they wouldn't notice.
In addition, I don't see the companies paying for ads getting hurt the most, in the end, if they would recognize that these types of ads are inefficient, they just wouldn't use it as much (they would use other outlets) or lower how much the value (and pay) for it. Which would help me (by getting rid of something I dislike), and at the same time hurt those that maintain and support that part of the business in the adtech world (another plus for me).
Yes, if you look hard enough, you can find anything. But I think the idea is to make it so that the bad things don't just continue to float around where people not looking for it might see it.
Just like terrorist content (how to make bombs/attack infidels and such) still exists, and those looking for it would probably find it, but the governments are trying to make it so that innocent people that have no inclination to perform horrible acts don't run into it by "chance". And just like they did to Muslim extremists and violent ideas in that front, they are now trying to do in other areas.
I've been on the Internet my entire life and not even once I've seen something I didn't want or expect to see. It's simply not possible to force people to watch a several minutes long video or read a manifesto with dozens of pages, so I don't understand this sentiment.
Then don't be. No one is forcing you. Just leave.
Yes, terrible things were done in the founding of America, but terrible things happened all over the world throughout history (including between warring native tribes). But what we need to take from this isn't that our ancestors were horrible human beings, but that they did wrong things and more importantly, we need to strive to learn from it, not repeat their mistakes and generally be better people.
> the current property "owners" are criminal trespassers in my view.
Then pretty much every single American is a trespassers because basically the entire United States (or North America in general) was settled by native American before the Europeans "discovered" it, and in most cases, they didn't sell them their land.