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patents that are part of the 3G/4G standard have to be licensed on a FRAND basis (fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory).


It is more subtle that that. Patent holders who contributed to the 3G/4G/5G standards agree to make their standards essential patents available under FRAND terms. However, this does not apply to patent holders who have not contributed to the 3G/4G/5G standards (because they are not part of any agreement about patent licensing terms for the standard).


Those sure as shit look like SEPs issued by Samsung/LG/Panasonic. Here similar case from Europe

https://www.essentialpatentblog.com/2018/03/magistrate-judge...


They still end up being the subject of jury trials, and the outcome is often not FRAND.


The indications are on github if you want to check your phone.



It would be interesting if everybody just pulled an Elon and when Wapo asked for comment they would just say something like "Tell Jeff we say hi". It completely takes the moral high ground from the journalists.


NSO Group is dead at this point. They fucked with the wrong people. Hacking human rights advocates is fine but when Presidents and PMs start getting their phones hacked I am sure they will implement legislation to outlaw this type of software.


It’s an Israeli weapon, subject to arms control legislation. But that legislation can only be authored by Israel itself. So it doesn’t matter what other countries outlaw, Israel will continue to authorise NSO to sell the software to state actors around the world.

Israel could always do with an extra friend or two and providing this software gains them a friend while costing them nothing.


It really doesn't cost them nothing - it makes them the target to offensive operations of other states. I'd be very, very surprised if NSO itself isn't hacked.


Israel is not immune from international pressure though.


Um, they kind of are? Or at least think they are? Any sort of international pressure is met with cries of 'anti-semitism' which quickly shuts down anyone. It is used to combat the BDS movement, which itself is intended to put pressure on Israel over the occupation of Palestine. A non-violent option similar to what happened with South Africa.


Attacking NSO would be like attacking the Israeli government and you don't do that because your PM's shitty OpSec was exposed.


The only overtly pro-nomatterwhat-Israel government is the United States so at most 1 of the 193 countries in the United Nations would avoid regulating NSO on international relations grounds.


That is not true at all. The US is just as critical of Israel as many other countries.


This is actually one of the best reasons to hack another government.


Remember the Israelis also need allies.


Allies are allies because of strategic positioning, and many of Israel's proximal allies are authoritarian nations who have interest in this kind of technology. Israel's strategic value hardly shifted at all from this slate of embarrassing news.


The Israeli's have two allies of note, the US and Saudi Arabia. Everyone else dislikes to hates them.

The geopolitical clout of the US and Saudi Arabia are in decline.


Europe like them, kind of, many other gulf states, China, many african countries, I can go on and on


I'd guess that those same presidents will call them up and buy. They'd rather be a customer than try and change a behemoth with political power like these guys.


Unlikely. If anything this is good PR: look we have this great tool that can hack anything and we will totally sell it to shit countries run by tin pot dictators.

The only way this backfires is if somebody sends men with guns after them.


What evidence is there that a PM has been hacked? Their number was on the list but haven't seen anything about Pegasus having been found on their devices.


^This person is wrong. FISA and FBI counter-intel have a low bar to get warrants because that's what congress intended.


Indeed, the FISA court only exists to rubber-stamp warrants.

In 33 years the FISA court granted 33,942 warrants, in that same time only 12 were denied, a rejection rate of 0.03% [0]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Foreign_Intellig...


The rejection rate, in a vacuum, isn't evidence that they are rubber stamping warrants.

From a logical perspective, it could mean that those submitting requests are able to avoid sending weak ones and choose to do so.

I'm not saying I believe you/the standard view is wrong, but there must be some other evidence.


On the contrary, a rejection rate that low implies rubber-stamping, prima facie. You would need positive evidence to support your assertion, e.g. that FISA submissions are unusually high-quality. The actual case is, I am sure, that the system was constructed to make allowing the warrant to be easy, rejecting it hard, and the people involved are just responding to incentives. Namely, since it's all secret they are only accountable to each other, so why give each other a hard time?


>a rejection rate that low implies rubber-stamping, prima facie. You would need positive evidence to support your assertion

I've deftly avoided ever taking a class in statistics, but I have gathered there are two schools - Bayesians, who are honest about having priors, and everyone else.


Their biggest customers are middle eastern governments according to the WaPo article. US certainly has bought the software but it's mostly Saudi, UAE, Qatar, etc. US has NSA so they don't really need some software. Middle eastern powers dont have the same type of technical expertise to develop their own in-house.


So should we consider the NSA a terrorism-aiding organization?

edit: the tone is lost via internet; my own opinion on this: yes, it is.


> So should we considered the NSA a terrorism-aiding organization

This statement needs the "we" defined to be meaningful.

If it is the U.S., then obviously no, the NSA is an arm of the state. If "we"` is e.g. China, probably no, because words have meanings and the arms of recognized foreign states don't conduct terrorism, they do espionage and they do war. If "we" is a freshman dorm room, then, of course, the NSA is a terrorist organization alongside the student government.


> > So should we considered the NSA a terrorism-aiding organization

> If it is the U.S., then obviously no, the NSA is an arm of the state.

Its perhaps worth noting that “terrorism” originally exclusively denoted action by the State against its own subjects, though it was within a few years expanded to include other activities.


> “terrorism” originally exclusively denoted action by the State against its own subjects

Correct, in the French Revolution, I believe. There are a variety of definitions of terrorism. The common elements seem to be the (a) peacetime use (b) of violence (c) against non-combatants (d) as a political tool. There also seems to be an unspoken requirement that it occurred after the formation of modern states (otherwise almost all of the preceding human history was terrorism and the word gets normalized); the French Revolution is a useful line.

The NSA targets non-combatants (c) in peacetime (a). It does not use violence (b), though it does enable it (⅓b). It does not do so for domestic political aims (to any proven degree); the degree to which it does so abroad depends on where one draws the line between politics and geopolitics. (The CIA, in contrast, engages in all four overseas.)

When an organization that has done terrorism becomes a terrorist organization is another question.


Okay that settles it, the word terrorism has so many conflicting and overlapping contexts that it is useless


> If it is the U.S., then obviously no, the NSA is an arm of the state.

Some here in the states don't exactly feel like the people running the USG have the people's best interests at heart. Common folk across countries probably have more in common with each other than with the ruling elite.

State-sponsored terrorism is a thing - and has been for a LONG time. And US citizens are targets as well as non-citizens.


It requires indoctrination to believe the US as an aggregate sovereign brand functions with the interest of US people in mind.

Nothing about US foreign policy suggests that. Very little about the Federal government’s domestic policy does.


Said indoctrination is baked into school, movies, sports events, and every fiber of the country's dialog.

Some will never leave the Matrix.


Is this supposed to be some kind of "gotcha"? Both are despicable.


Exactly, lol. Not sure if the GP comment is trying to imply some sort of good comes out of the NSA.


There comes good out of the NSA, at least good for the US like stealing IP and patents for American companies [0]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Examples_of_industrial...


Ummm, stopping terror attacks is pretty good.


There is a community on reddit called "self-aware wolves" that narrowly identifies a much broader phenomenon: there are many elements of modern society which are generally tolerated but not morally permissible. This is a representative instance.


Yes, we should


Yes. We should.


Does terrorizing citizens through illegal spying and mass surveillance constitute terrorism? Or does only setting off bombs in public spaces count?


There would need to be some actual violence involved to constitute terrorism. If you spy on some journalist and then us that info to catch him and cut him in pieces while he's still alive, then the dismemberment may be considered terrorism and the spying was aiding that terrorism; if you spy on many people and the end result is just that some officers laugh about their naked photos or deny them jobs or disallow crossing borders, then that's just "ordinary" mass surveillance with no relationship to terrorism.


Once you too have had the misfortune of a bomb going off near your family, you will know the answer.


The NSA does not illegally spy. Congress has given them large authorizations to collect data and they need FISA approval before tapping Americans. 99.9% of the good work that NSA does will never be seen by the public.


How quickly we forget the massive warrantless wiretapping that occurred under the umbrella of the patriot act.


Terrorism aiding, they said.


1. There are many, many more Western countries other than the US.

2. Even if they develop their own tools and research their exploits, using NSO provides a layer of plausible deniability and hiding behind someone else's fingerprint (think about the command and control servers, for example).

3. Even if they develop their own stuff, most governments have multiple arms which can use these tools (think about FBI, CIA, NSA, various military intelligence branches), and they tend not to share between them. This makes smaller government branches which don't have the resources and expertise of the others (think DEA, ATF...) buy from 3rd parties.

4. Zero days are a scarce resource, if I ran an agency I'd rather use someone else's every day and keep my own just for the special stuff.

In summary, it's exceedingly appealing for bodies like the Dutch police to use NSO tools and NSO's association with the Saudis and other provides a convenient masking to their operations.


The CIA doesn't monitor cyber, that would be the NSA and US Cyber Command


They don't monitor it, you're right


Garden leave vs non-competes are very different.


In addition you are comparing somebody who has insurance (slovenia) to somebody who theoretically doesn't 'US'. Most people in the US get their health insurance through their employer and would pay nothing out of pocket, and if you are uninsuranced the drug companies will often times just give the drug away to you for free.


Even if you have really good health insurance, you often pay out of pocket.

> if you are uninsuranced the drug companies will often times just give the drug away to you for free.

This is horribly incorrect. People die for lack of insulin in the US all the time, and it's not because they just didn't bother to ask for their free insulin.


No, I´m not. The price for an insured patient (which is everyone, by law) is zero. 19.96 is just the sticker price.


But they have 'insurance' through their taxes.


Politics and governance in the UK: freeloading on the American pharma system.


Actually, it is more like: not allowing regular people to be shafted by the American pharma system.


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