That's what happens when startups build good products. Blogs get behind it. A previous article from the same blog: http://wp.me/p2OgMk-29t "SNCF iOS app now stores user info. Can Capitaine Train compete?" [ Dec. 2012]
I see. Well actually I didn't mean to sound like I was arguing on the public vs. private axis. In fact my put-a-man-on-the-moon example was, of course, hugely about government.
What I mean is I'm skeptical of the impact of efforts (public or private) to "teach entrepreneurship". Yes you can teach that, one by one. But if the desired outcome is to have many more entrepreneurs, you don't get there one by one. You get there by changing the culture to elevate the social status of entrepreneurs. Any efforts -- whether public or public -- need to focus on that, first and foremost.
The rumor is not replete with how the proposed tax would work either; however, previous indications of similarly proposed taxes would suggest a tiered tax level based on different types of User data (more sensitive vs less sensitive) are stored in different tiers (France/National, Europe/Federal, and outside of Europe), with wavering amounts of taxes on a, I imagine, per user level.
> Why you saying Why should Internet companies be taxed?
Because all other companies are being taxed when offering products or services to citizens of the given country, within the legislation of that country. Certain Internet companies use questionable tax planning strategies (in Europe as well as the US) to pay a ridiculously small amount of taxes and thus gaining an unfair advantage.
> Or Why should taxes exist at all?
Because running a country costs money which is required to provide services such as law enforcement and a regulated banking system. These services are required by citizens and corporations alike.
But going further down this argument is obviously not in the scope of this discussion thread and will not end up being a fruitful conversation. We're talking about a small-ish change to the tax system rather than a full blown anarchist revolution here.
Definitely agree that the eBay example is a stretch (i wrote the article); however, I grew up in the Bay Area around French families (mostly engineers), and there was a certain French culture retained - not sure how you feel with respect to that.
The greater idea was that there is something inherently 'French' that produces great entrepreneurs - not that these particular ones owe France anything, but that it's worth reflecting on.
You're definitely right - I chose to mention the "VLC" project instead of Videolabs in the subtitle, as I felt people would recognize it more. Hence the explanation in the text.
The list is in no way complete, nor indicative of any 'ranking' - I think I could write a similar list once a week for the next year and not give everyone their due respect.
Indeed, while it doesn't entirely combat the 'bashing' - some of the bashing is due, so we can't expect to entirely reject all criticism - it does put a stick in the bicycle wheel of the "France doesn't have a word for entrepreneur" banter.
Just a question: Doesn't "entrepreneur" totally sound French? I'm French so it's obvious to me, but I'm surprised you fetched a dictionnary to back you up. Do English speakers need to be scholar to guess it's a French word?
French as well, so I'm only backing my point with the dictionary definition ;)
Given how weirdly they tend to pronounce french word and sometimes transform them -see rouge (but it's only fair since we do the same sometimes) I guess it doesn't hurt to reiterate it.
The "the French don't have a word for entrepreneur" is supposedly a quote from George Bush [1], and he's ridiculed for it because we all know "entrepreneur" is French.
I didn't even know this quote came from anywhere in particular. I honestly believed it was poking fun at the French bureaucracies inability to grow small businesses due to taxes and social charges.
Even a few years ago if you wanted to start a new business in a market that didn't exist yet you would be told it can't be done. For example, "Le Camion qui Fume" had to spend years to get the business license because the concept of the food truck didn't exist in France. Surprisingly, mobile epiceries, bakers, and butchers have existed for years so I don't know why mobile restaurants took so long.
And don't take any offence with what's been said above, it's funny to see a word / idiom / expression being taken over by the english language, as much as the opposite; ie : The Hangover being translated Very Bad Trip.
I can't speak to the other posts, but as the author of this post, the intrigue for me is that the common thread, their country of Origin, makes a big statement about France's ability to educate and product entrepreneurs.
There is also a subtle undertone (I chose not to dive into it in the article, as it's been discussed in depth elsewhere) about the fact that many of France's most successful citizens found their success outside of France, suggesting that, while the French system produces a consistent flow of intelligent entrepreneurs (a keystone of a healthy startup ecosystem), it fails to create an environment in which those entrepreneurs feel they can succeed.
Let's dig (Granted: It's a kind of Godwin point for a French entrepreneur post):
- 71% tax above 31k€ per year: VAT 20%, Revenue tax 15%, Taxe Pro/Education 1%, [health, retirement, elderly, unemployment and similar] social mandatory fees 46%, mandatory fees and tax agent 2200€, the total is around 71%.
- Research incentives "CIR" can pay up to 90% of your PhD employees,
- ACCRE, women incentives and some I'm-a-victim incentives can get you 10-80k€ loans that you don't have to reimburse in case of failure.
It looks to me like we're selecting our best start-ups on how well they do at smuggling benefits.
It also looks like we weigh on those who could grow. Make your calculation: Without 71% of tax, how many people do our competitors hire?
Last thing, there is a heavy hate for "those who make money" in France. I'm constantly at fear of talking about money and being bashed on the spot. Not like I try to improve on that anyway, I've seen how rich is the rest of the world and I think we should have a little talk here. Also, we don't incentive successful ones to come back. The retirement and health systems welcome you like someone who is intensely rich, which, in France, isn't good. And intensely rich starts at the programmer wage.
We like to say "Fuite des cerveaux" when talking about our engineers going to [insert any place in the rest of the world]. But we're getting into the range of "Fuite des mains": Two blue collar of my friends have left to Canada. We need to have a little talk in France about money.
That said... I came back from Australia to France to start my company. The competent doctors was a big one for me, as well as a cheaper cost of living.
NB: Thanks heaps to Liam for doing this little research. Looking forward to the list of local startups, e.g. Xavier Niel.
Come on, stop the French whining, and then maybe the French bashing will stop.
I wont even comment the 71%, because any educated reader will understand that theses taxes do not add up like that.
And even if it was true, a French engineer is still way cheaper than a SF one, especially once you want to provide health care and 401k. Added that since they whine all the time, French startups pay almost no taxes the first years.
The only reason why France do not have an important startup scene, is because French entrepreneur and investors are afraid of risk, and prefer to fund their companies with government subsidies.
Byroot, it's gross to reject an argument like that. Look:
> I wont even comment the 71%, because any educated reader will understand that theses taxes do not add up like that.
Emh, have you... done the calculation? Because I did. And I've found 71% for a scenario of 70k€.
It's insulting to assume I've just been adding up percentages. And when I find 71%, it's enough to back my statement that we're plainly choking our companies.
> The only reason (...) is because French entrepreneurs and investors are afraid of risk
Requires citation, it's just an unbacked statement. You have to prove it's the genes and not the administrative burden that weighs on us. I say it's the administrative burden.
It's not even clear what you are talking about. Anyway what I meant is that you are adding, VAT, income taxes and employment taxes, It makes no sense because they all have a different "Assiette fiscale" (sorry no idea of the translation, it mean that their cost are based on different amounts i.e. benefit vs revenue vs salaries).
> Requires citation
Xavier Niel: "France is a tax heaven" [0]
Plus my own experience of parisian entrepreneurs / startups. Most of them are ramen profitable from the start just because of the R&D grants and other subsidies.
At the risk of grossly generalizing, it's interesting to contrast the French and Silicon Valley cultures -- the pursuit of wealth versus benefit to society. SV invented the hipster capitalist, he wants to get rich but pretends to really want to change the world. OTOH the French are proud of their social institutions like education and health, but hate paying for it all.
Canada seems to be on a middle ground (ignoring the present administration). We complain about taxes too, but even the most conservative like our universal healthcare. It's a trade-off.
Unfortunately as a society (Canada) we're a little too conservative when it comes to entrepreneurship. Where I live anyway, the only path to 'success' that anyone can envision is working for a large corporation...
Tax wise BC Canada and California are about equal. BC has about %3 more sales tax, and consumer goods are more expensive for a combination of reasons. But on the other hand companies don't pay much in healthcare costs either.
The far more competitive and close by Seattle although draws in a lot of talent with no state income tax and being cheaper than California yet still close to home.
Right. And for me that is positive, because creating the economical environment is easier than improving greatly the education and fostering creativity and self thinking. Basically France needs to reduce taxes on employment, and provide for better ways for investment to happen. That seems doable.
