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> have a ton of redundant jobs because of their inability to make needed structural changes because of the work councils and labor laws.

How will they able to adapt to truly focus on electric cars then? Especially when that means many of their suppliers become redundant.


Labor protection laws limit options with direct employees, they do not interfere at all with a company's relation to suppliers. That's why subcontracting exists, it's employer-side redundancy insurance.


They'd probably get more return by 'encouraging' Google and American tech companies to open bigger offices.


Why favor big companies that already have resources?


It's an interesting thought. Does German really have a prayer in this space? Making breakthroughs in this space isn't something just any trained student can do. The best all work for American tech companies... German co's don't believe in paying well. This can be extended to most European nations.


Those are really ignorant statements. Bosch, Siemens, BMW etc. definitely pay well and employ plenty of talented people.


The pay well compared to other german companies. However not compared to US/FAANG companies.

As a reference, most of those companies will pay engineers according to the IG Metall Tarif, which can e.g. be found there: https://www.igmetall.de/docs_MuE_ERA_Entgelte_Juni2018_78d3e...

This is per month, and there's 13.26 monthly salaries per year.

Engineers will typically not receive the highest lines which are reserved for managers, but something below (e.g. EG15 in Baden-Württemberg).

There are some company specific and performance bonuses on top of that, which might be up to 30%, but are typically far less (and often not performance but age-based). In the end things top out far below 100kEur for most engineers there, with no chances to get higher without moving into people management.

I worked at one of those companies (not the listed ones, but a similar one) for a couple of years, and found these things pretty frustrating after a few years.


So EG15 at 13.26 monthly salaries works out to about 70000, which is roughly a Assistenzarzt (medical doctor) makes after 4 years of work. If that is indeed true it is pretty pathetic. From what I've heard of people moving into industry with doctorates in physics, some of them make significantly more. One is a director of research at Bosch, the other works at IBM in Germany. Both had starting salaries north of 100k. Same is true of compensation at Siemens, I guess the key is to not be payed according to some Tarif.


Yes, if you get outside of Tarif things might look better. But at the company I worked this was reserved for >= senior manager positions.

Technically there existed individual contributor levels on that level. However they were only given to senior managers who failed at their job of leading people, instead of ICs that had been really good at what they were doing.


They pay well indeed but not the devs or engineers. The managers and all the old boy's are riding the gravy train in those companies but your average Dev there is being taken for a ride. If you have no interest of going twards Management, there are better place to work.


Ignorant? It's a well known fact that European tech salaries (especially SWE salaries) are dwarfed by American/SV salaries. Just look up the difference in what GOOGLE pays its American vs EU employees. This doesn't even take into account taxation rate, which is favorable in US.

Virtually every "How much do you earn?" thread that pops up on HN has loads of comments with Europeans being surprised at the amount of money Americans make in tech.

Further - right now America is close to uncontested in the amount of technology it is producing and exporting. The only widely used European software I can think of is SAP. America is winning the talent war. I've only had a few friends who moved from US to Europe for tech work - and in all cases it had nothing to do with the job. Had more to do with wanting to "explore new places". On the other hand, I know tonnes of Euros, Indians, and Chinese who have come to US to work.


Those Europeans surprised at the the amount of money Americans make evidently aren't working in America. Maybe that tautologically makes them not the best, but I doubt it. Sometimes a "good enough" salary at a place you're comfortable beats an astronomical salary that requires moving to Silicon Valley.

That you personally only know few people who moved to Europe from the US but many who moved to the US probably says more about your location than about general trends. I know only few Germans who moved to the US for work, but many Americans, Iranians and Chinese who moved to Berlin. But that's where I live, so it's to be expected.


It's going to get even more extreme in the near future. Tesla is embarrassing all of the German auto manufacturers mightily. I think they'll need one or two to go down before they break out of their complacency.


It's forecast that Germany will lose around 1/3 of its auto industry jobs over the next few decades, in the switch to electric vehicles. Areas of auto manufacturing that they are very good at, are simply going to go away when everything is electric.

I would expect BMW to struggle the most among the German giants, if Tesla doesn't stop growing soon. The rise of Mercedes back to top form was a bad enough of a hit for BMW, then Tesla comes along poised to sell $40 billion worth of cars every year in the near future (all of which cost far more than ~$35k, which is a direct shot at all the luxury makers).

Germany is sitting in a great position nationally (epic trade surplus, good national finances, and reasonably fine household finances), now is the time to aggressively invest if you're them, to try to build out a large number of new technology jobs.


Sure, but they are smart at the industries of the past. Will bureaucratic Germany be able to adapt? I don't think so. Take electric cars for instance. Much simpler than traditional cars. Will devastate the Mittelstand.


Electric cars are only marginally simpler than traditional cars. The body, interior, suspension, and infotainment system are all the same. Only the drive train changes. Building efficient battery packs, electric motors, and transmissions still requires a lot of precision machining and assembly work.


Because Germmany like most other European countries doesn't really have any local FAANG like companies and you can see than in the job market.

Most dev salaries at local companies are garbage compared to what FAANG companies pay in their EU offices.


News for you: FAANG companies pay garbage salaries in their EU offices (Switzerland is not EU). Source: glassdoor.com


Still they pay more than market. EU salaries are not very high in general, but taxes are. So big tech firms just need to pay a bit more than the market to attract talent.


L5 SWE in London is ~US$200k total comp. No, not quite as much as SF, but that's still insane money outside of finance.


£160k/year won't allow you to even buy a family home within 1 hour distance to the office over 10 years that is around maximum you'd spend @ FAANG as a SWE. It's truly pointless to feel good about it even if it is considered "insane money" due to really low London engineering salaries (worse than Munich on average). For the same work you'd likely get 350k CHF in Zurich (and won't be able to buy apartment either as Swiss aren't selling).


Working near a major station like Kings Cross where Google is gives you a really wide area with a sub 1 hour commute. Plenty of commuter towns in that radius have housing easily affordable on half that salary.


Funny that you believe Glassdoor salaries as being accurate. People who earn the big bucks don't advertise that on Glassdoor.


The comparison remains valid, even if it only tells you that the people not earning the big bucks in one place make more than their counterparts in another.


Fair point, but even dwarfed by what they pay back home, they still pay more than what the local companies do even though the bar is so low.


> This moves economic resources in the US to less competitive industries.

Is this really true?

Does having industries like furniture-making really make it so we don't have Google?


The people who brought us Google we not the laid off workers nor community college blue collar kids who now don’t have decently earning blue collar jobs.


It's only declining in the places where people give a shit about the Planet in these terms.


One of the funnier aspects of the stereotypical basket of progressive views is that they end up holding their own societies to high standards and criticize qualities of those societies that were necessary for the fostering of their own worldview.


They "give a shit" but at the same time pollute a thousand times more (per capita). So one less American and one more Indian is a net positive for our green earth.


I'm not sure about that. USA has a lot of nature preserves and strict environment laws. 3rd world countries may experience runaway population growth where no land left undisturbed and nothing is preserved.

If we take CO2 it's another thing, but low emissions won't save you once all the biosphere is literally eaten.


That has nothing to do with cost to earth. We just export our pollution to seas and china.

If all countries start living like americans we'd need 5 times the surfaces area of earth.


Preserving biosphere is precious. "Cost to earth" is meaningless by itself - the planet isn't going anywhere. The only fragile thing here is biosphere.

I can see that you don't actually value Earth, just pity that it's so small you have to ration it.


He was mistaken. It's almost a million in profit.


It's going to get a lot worse, now that these people have been forced out of power in goverment, they will turn their eye to other things.


A lot of the H1Bs are more skilled at resume stuffing than any actual technical skills.


This is as much a sweeping generalization as saying Americans are unqualified for tech jobs. There's an interview process for hiring H1Bs. So if you don't like their technical skills, you're free to not hire them.


and what exactly makes you say that? your own observation of a sample size 0 or 1?


I think people from family oriented cultures will be less likely to come here if they can't bring everyone over.


I bet we'll see more women get into IT and software engineering once the industry becomes more diverse. 90% H1-Bs, most from truly misogynistic countries has more impact on the lack of women in IT than some bros.


What complete rubbish.


This country survived before H1B immigration. One could say we actually had relatively more rapid technological progress during the time in which we had the least immigration.


Of course you're downvoted. You know who benefits from mass immigration of cheap skilled and unskilled labour? Growth/profit oriented businesses, aka the majority. And you know they'll fight for their profits.

After WW2, immigration dropped, while a lot of new work in all areas was popping up. Result - labour shortages and decent wages, more or less.


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